or a reviler, [verbal attack, slander, violent language] and I had a problem with the Bible, as a silencing technique. During all my time of distress, nobody in the church was there for me, whether inside or outside a brick building with a cross and steeple. Daisy, I speak at CR on behalf of educating, as well as other community organizations supporting families such as AA. JA, I addressed that in a blog post on my Miss Daisy Blog some time ago (that my posts at Barbaras blog were censored for mentioning codependency. I also think that his wife and children need help in living with a problem drinker and that the church should encourage them in this, as well as him getting treatment. Some here believe that people with addictions should be kicked out of the church. or a drunkard, [substance abuse] Name me one church and one case that has carried out Biblical Church Discipline correctly. Excellent comment, Linn. Within a year or two hell petition the court to expunge the misdemeanor. Many of us then turned to the church for compassion, thinking it was a safe place for full disclosure, only to be abused there too. Many non Christians came and eventually came to The Lord. Sproul was converted. I think it is best to take this argument back a bit. Thats just not cool. Unbelievers have often accused Christians of Dark Ages thinking. But for a professing believer to attack other believers in such a manner is disturbing. 12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? People who dont even pick up a drink can have unhealthy behaviors. I would advise caution. Cluster groups have been studied at length for things like brain tumors, etc. I dont think Ive revealed much of anything on my views for you to make such a statement. Thanks Gram3 for your explanation of the damage that R.C. Treatment can help only those who reach rock bottom. He needs to be in an in-patient treatment program. The Bible teaches us what true fellowship of the believer looks like. Tullian Tchividjian and Fortress Press: Dont Legitimate Second Chances Require a Real Track Record of RepentanceFirst? Im so sorry, I promise I wont ever do it again is the first line of defense of the alky, no extra charge for the tears. I would say the same about someone who didnt go to church. Im not sure that we disagree? Thank you. She needs help for being married to an alcoholic: http://www.al-anon.alateen.org/. Sounds like Alcoholic Logic to me. I love them dearly & only wish they could have the love & grace that you & your church offered to her. But you should know as well as anyone that you cant get anywhere with an alcoholic by forcing him. Welcome to TWW! You could join St. Peter Presbyterian easily but just try leaving without his permission, and getting permission was impossible unless you had a good reason to be moving far away. I have studied and truly believe and understand the disease/treatment model for addictions. I appreciate H.A.s appropriate anger toward R.C. For me it falls under the love one anothers to direct a person into substance abuse treatment as well as to care for their family and to guide them to appropriate help. Has that been reported on or discussed? She may not have much say over what he does, especially anything involving his children. In all fairness, that is not what Barbara said. The Pittsburgh Press. Its non stop catering to their lifestyle. I have explained myself and you have explained yourself. And then, even *within* a denomination, my former one being PC-USA, when a pastor is fired for cause (affairs, embezzlement), he can move across the country, and in a different regional body, talk his way back into a pastoral position. The alcoholic never thinks about anyone other then themselves. New TWW post. This truck had lap belts, which Im pretty sure we werent using. Hes been mollycoddled and bailed out every time hes gotten himself into trouble. Both yesterday and today you repeatedly made comments to me, saying that I thought things about R.C. Ill be praying for you and your circle. As far as Im concerned most churches are incompetent to even lend the kind of support to the families of alkies that they need, and they should probably just stay out of it. They dont either. Its not your quote. Perhaps you missed Barbaras comment on Friday at 5:40 p.m. to H.U.G. Kind of like connecting Lizzie Borden to a lumberjack because both of them used an ax. Hi Dee and Deb, just a couple of things you might want to correct in this part of your post: >> Heart breaking tragedy is not an excuse for substance abuse. First I do not agree that it is the churchs responsibility to have any medical opinions about people, or try to channel them into any treatment options, or to espouse any particular medical opinions as the official opinions or procedures of the church. I remember a friend teaching me to ask for sparkling water or ginger ale with a wedge of lime at a cocktail parties because it looked like something alcoholic Gave me something to hold in my hand, and kept the guys from trying to buy me a drink. If yes, please consider going to at least six Al-Anon meetings (theyre free) for the family and friends of problem drinkers. I am simply trying to understand how sitting in a church service once or twice a week can address the issues of alcoholism, depression, a sore throat, or anything else how can sitting in church heal a person of those things? Many resources already exist and are perfectly fine. Perhaps you missed my list up the thread from last night. (King relates this in the autobiographical first half of his nonfiction book On Writing. Yes, job loss should happen for Sproul 2, but with the church directing him and supporting him into treatment. 0.175. So-yeah for women in surgery, but yeah for the men also. Its so embarrassing on top of everything else. Find local and national death notices, funeral notices, obituaries, in memoriams, and acknowledgements at funeral-notices.co.uk, plus a directory of over 3,000 UK Funeral Directors Thank you, Deb. I would not doubt it all. Pennsylvania. Why would they have to go to a church, all so a pastor could do that same Googling to give them the names and addresses? a form of abuse that sounds remarkably similar to the same abuse RC Jr has inflicted on dozens of people. 30-90 day inpatient treatment is cost prohibitive for a lot of people, even if they wanted to go. The woman who hit us was found guilty of manslaughter and served time in prison. 30-90 day inpatient treatment is cost prohibitive for a lot of people, even if they wanted to go. I also prayed for the people who lurk here who struggle with addictions who were reeling from Barbaras words since yesterday. But doesnt seem all that likely. An 501(c)3 pastoral position of public trust has been verified? As long as he stays de-frocked and out of his victims' lives. No one wanted to hear it, not a soul I could blank off, which is fine, but so could the people I work with. Their denial is just a problematic as the person who is the problem drinker. This is done to build up the body of Christ unto the maturity and the unity of the faith. Usually that requirement is listed in the sentencing. And I mentioned several times RC2s behavior that justifies him being put out. It is ASTOUNDING to me that Christians make excuses for a TWICE DEFROCKED PASTOR. His drunkenness just by itself disqualified RC2 from being a leader. More and more articles have been released in the last 15 years containing information from studies saying that anti-depressant medications do not work for most people. But interventions and treatment does work. Or would you see the situation differently? You might as well talk to a brick wall. He has suffered tragedies, yes. We cant assume they cant be helped, no. As you and I discussed here yesterday, I am in agreement that Sproul Jr. should be terminated from his job because he is unfit. Is is with a licensed professional whos trained and qualified in alcoholism? She just trotted out a few scripture verses as though that will take care of everything. Lisa claims that RC Jr Has been dry since Nov. 29, 2016. Lisa probably has little if any practical experience with alkies. @ Max: But that runs right up against CELEBRITY Syndrome and TOUCH NOT MINE ANOINTED!, Barbara Roberts wrote: So someone asked how can sitting in the pews help a recovering alcoholic. This guy has way more going on than alcoholism. It sounds to me like he has a different definition for in moderation. We all pretty much know what the ideal scenarios are for alcoholics. And looking at this from a third angle: Even if the person may have been hurt they may still be absolutely correct and objective in what they say. Its great the people at her church were nice to her and paid for her funeral, but from what I recall of the story, she ended up dying even after entering a hospital? http://www.ligonier.org/blog/forsaken-jesus-became-curse/, http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/church-england-head-colluded-sex-abuse-48202873. You cannot reason with them because they quite literally cannot think straight. V- ^ ,v . Surely his dad RC SproulSr would have dealt with it. You yourself are stuck in a rut and go over the same things over and over again. But he stopped going to AA and we realized he was drinking again. Jr. sounds like hes running a cult, not a Presbyterian Church. He was a success story. Crushed the left side of my skull. I suppose its not really known for certain what causes the onset of alcoholism what, for instance, makes some people more susceptible to it than others. The Bible says that those who profess to be brothers in Christ and are drunkards need to be expelled from the church. I wont deny though that it may have fallen short. She was married to Howard Sproul who . I remember the anticipation of validation and consolation as some of those same people also left soon after. My mother said He couldnt help it. And guess what Yeah. All Birth, Marriage & Death, including Parish results for vesta ann voorhis. His father most definitely CAN keep Jr. from standing in the pulpit. Without Srs support Jr would have had no choice but to seek another vocation in 2006 after his defrocking. That was the purpose of our Parents Concerned ministry. When I am around a person/s who are alcoholics, I will not drink alcohol because I dont want to be a cause for them to be tempted to drink. In short, what began as a symptom or presenting problem of some deeper problem takes over and then becomes a worse issue, a consuming vicious solution to the original suffering. took exception to what I said and said I created a false correlation. Hes a lost drunkard, and a wolf in sheeps clothing on his way to hell. One may be a choice, the other, an illness. This may or may not be good advice in some cases, but it is certainly not a rule of thumb in that it assumes that the prior trauma caused the current bad behavior of hurting people and assumes that the person cannot help it when they hurt other people, and assumes that some prior trauma is a life time get out of jail free card for when the alleged victim of prior trauma may continue to hurt people. I have and it can be a beautiful thing. The purpose of Drug court is for those charged w felonies to be submersed in a rehab program for 1-1.5yrs and graduate with the Judge being the one sharing that persons story and how he/she has been redeem and will acclimate as a reformed person in society- its a big deal. 11 But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindlernot even to eat with such a one. I found learning about that topic very helpful to me my mother was raised in a home filled with alcoholism and domestic violence). Lord have mercy. In fact, wine, not unfermented grape juice, is viewed as a good gift of the Lord (Ps. Introducing The Keller Center. . [1]. How can an unregenerate unrepentant un-remorseful drunkard be allowed to pass himself off as a member in good standing of any Bible believing church? Most alcoholics go to in-patient treatment programs for 30 days to 90 days. As for whether or not other believers part company with him that situation is delineated by Christ Jesus Himself in Matthew 18. But to just say that someone with a drinking/substance abuse problem in the church should be publicly humiliated is NOT how substance abuse is supposed to be handled or treated. Ones dad ritually abused her as a baby, and another one doesnt even know his dad. My thing has always been to understand that the addict is probably hurting others and thats not OK. As I said above, in this day and age, people can use the internet to Google for names and addresses of treatment centers or psychologists. It just always seemed clear to me how Paul was instructing the Corinthian church to deal with sin that caused harm to the testimony of Christ. His family had left him and he died of runaway of pneumonia. @ Lea: IMO, some things about the so called Dark Ages were not all that dark, and this idea is one. Obituary. As you are well aware, acquainted with the sacred writings are able to make the body of Christ followers wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. Look at the fruit. Jesus was the ultimate obscenity. You said, When asked we can offer suggestions where they might find help.. Sr. cant make Jr. stop drinking. A wounded (broken, messed up) spirit who can bear? What Im seeing are a lot of hurting people who trigger very easily over certain things that remind them of past experiences that hurt them. ADAPTED identifiable applicable scriptural reference application: This is a trustworthy saying ; An overseer, must be above reproach, temperate, self-controlled, respectable and not dependent on wine. As I (Deb) have shared before with our TWW readers, when I was just 12 years old, I was in a vehicle that was struck by a drunk driver. Much more is known about getting people treatment and about the nature of addictions. Would jr. R.C. (If someone already said this, apologies. Unfortunately, even preachers succumb to the flesh by straying from being led by the Spirit where flesh rules over Spirit. You yourself are stuck in a rut and go over the same things over and over again. However, he was considered a,dry drunk,never stopped his stinking thinking. This is in keeping with working the steps with a sponsor in a recovery program and cleaning up the wreckage of ones past.. dont recall, still too lazy to scroll up to re read her comment at this time) would it be fine with you if he was fired in private? Under what circumstances did you become aware of alcohol abuse in these people-that might be a tip off. This led to serious issues for the people involved. He sounds arrogant and terrible. Drunk/ drug driving maims and kills. Not that it has anything to do with alcoholism, but many adult children of my acquaintance will never step foot in a church again because of the toxic teachings of RC Sproul Sr., RC Sproul Jr, and like-minded men who espouse the same teachings. We did not do that with the lady in question who was going on and on about codependency. I realized I was consumed with anxiety and I sought professional help. . People were afraid to discuss it. (Expire a life, or innocence or a reputation, or a familys resources, etc.) You have no clue what is beneath someones drinking problem, nor does Barbara. Not even your friend pastor Wade Burleson advocates that. Today, Stephen Nichols and Mrs. Vesta Sproul talk about the vision behind RBC 10 years after its founding. He was also arrested and charged with endangering the lives of his two minor children who were with him in the car. Too. He certainly used the threat of excommunication and shunning as a form of the rack. Later it was discovered that his late wife Denise either lived in a town with toxic waste problems or went to a school that had toxic waste problems. Totally agree with you about his church (and Ligonier, etc.) Sproul Jr.s case raises. Check on a story that seems radically improbable. We could not see how brainwashed we had been until we had gained some distance, time, and perspective. But her children have been wounded and scarred. If its 2 and 3 he is being monitored somewhat closely and I assume is less of a danger to society, at least on the road. What a traumatic event. Not born again huh? Thanks for giving us that information. It was a life changing experience. I know plenty of cold sober people who embrace patriarchy. So far youve been entirely nebulous about it. the worst thing Ive heard is that the leaders of the accountability groups go running to the pastor with all the details and what is admitted to in the group comes back later to haunt the person if they attempt to leave the Church. job loss). Because if the focus is on the booze, and he from all appearances sobers up (which he could very well do) then where does that leave those of us who are his spiritual abuse victims? Thats not the answer to their problems. That is also comparing apples to oranges. I need to verify you are who you say you are, but will respect your privacy. That is where God met me and my family member. I am not giving him a pass on his abusive behavior. The parents would go to the local country club on Saturday nights, and they paid me well to watch their children, who were fantastic little people. Web site of Farber and Otteman Funeral Homes and Cremation Center, Sac City, Lake View, Odebolt, and Wall Lake, Iowa You may recall that he wrote a post about the Ashley Madison scandal, knowing he had an account, and later had to confess after he was outed. No prison time. I have been on the receiving end of that sense of entitlement, & preferential treatment of alcohol over humans many times. Velda Deene Strasner Sproul Obituary With heavy hearts, we announce the death of Velda Deene Strasner Sproul of San Angelo, Texas, who passed away on January 24, 2021 at the age of 88. Im talking about the loss of time with real friends who are still my friends. A question: Here is a link: http://www.al-anon.alateen.org/. He will also get real psychological help for his children to work through the various traumatic experiences they have been through. RC Sproul Jrinitiallypled *not guilty," proving he wasnot ready to face his issues. She was in a very fragile place. Perhaps you are being blinded by the guys alcohol addiction. If he Sproul gets clean and sober he will probably ditch many ideas that he used to justify including patriarchy. But R.C. It may be all they can do to get help.. And yes, the drunk chose to drive. @ Friend:Yes, Please pray. That would be difficult, but more likely to lead to a successful recovery, ISTM. In most cases those sins were nothing more than they wanted to leave his church for another church. They can clarify their views here. The record of his life, the record he created and boasted about in his own sermons and publications, the record he established boozing it up in front of his church members, proves that RC Sproul Jr has been abusing the booze for many many years prior to his personal family tragedies. Ive seen the terrible impacts of alcohol abuse in my family, beginning with just a beer at the picnic to full-fledged alcoholism with many consequences. In my opinion, when someone is refused fellowship in the church, there could still be close friends or pastors who keep in touch with this person until they change or refuse the contact. Barbara advocated that people with substance abuse problems be kicked out of the church. I was even on anti-anxiety meds for a few years. I definitely agree with #1 and #2. I am not against treatment, and Barbara did not say her opinion, so until she specifies, we cannot assume. Mr Sproul Jr has not reached the bottom. That she didnt address him getting treatment does not necessarily mean she is opposed to the idea. Although no church is perfect, some have lousy ideas about caring. I reacted too strongly to some things you said. Theres even less agreement on the extend to which an alcoholic is responsible for his behaviour whilst drunk. Galatians 6 seems to differentiate between those people who are to be restored and those in ICor 5 that are to be put out. Either way you need to stop putting words in other peoples mouths. Think about grace being the last act in the story, which I think it may be for us all. @ brian: The ironic thing, Velour, is that in my experience most recovering alkies, both in AA and CR, would encourage Lisa to show RC Jr tough love. Its a term that comes up often in CR meetings. I, too, thought it was very moving. I dont recall anyone saying addictions alone warranted anyone being kicked out. You have taken this quote out of context . Isnt there some kind of authoritative oversight in the Presbyterian denomination? After reading the entire cited paragraph, RC limits his comments to drinking alcohol and sidesteps ABUSE of alcohol by others. As for Presbyterian polity, RC1 is ordained in the PCA, but the last I heard, he was the pastor of an *independent* Presbyterian church. I forget who coined the phrase but its very appropriate here, Hurting people hurt people. I think we can do better though. Why are you addressing that to me? We were reluctant to write about this since he continued in ministry under his dad. nothing worse than a drunk driver hurting innocent people and its NOT an accident when a drunk gets behind the wheel and people die or are hurt terribly and being sorry doesnt cut it in court, Like I said in my other comment, this issue raises a lot of emotions in a lot of people, @ elastigirl: I find that the best part of blogging. (let alone applied in practice?). AA in particular is seriously overrated, and even the courts know it. Yes, indeed; RC Sproul Snr (and his buddy MacArthur) is one of the most dangerous false teachers around, spewing forth a false gospel; and wasnt he the one who had advocated that Christians (his version of it) should watch filthy movies and so on? Barbs and sarcasm are a coping mechanism Ive developed from everything Ive been through. But I have a lot of sympathy for his kids/family, and hope he gets help for their sakes. That is a very condescending response, Velour. I saw it as narrowly focused on RC Sproul, Jr. 12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? When I was a month away from turning 13, I was invited by a friend to go to Myrtle Beach with her and her parents. Barbara made a nasty comment to H.U.G. I do not believe that anyone is doing him any favors by enabling him. I know its hard, I do cry for strength, I dont always like him for the damage done to our family. I lost a cousin to drunk driving incident many years ago- she was a mother of one child. Okay, maybe a little anger too. I think the way these churches do it IS called accountability groups where people are urged to confess everything to the group and Im not sure what happens next . Thanks. Nothing in life is full-proof. It should also be noted that removing someone from the church, for a time, does not mean they are declared an unbeliever. This is not cool. So I would be cautious about over-emphasizing secular, mainstream, or Non-Christian solutions and treatment to hurting people, whether they are alcoholics, or are suffering from domestic abuse or from depression, or whatever they are undergoing. H.A., However, I dont believe their marginal successes in any merit the sort of dogmatic enthusiasm you give them. OK, thats not what I said or believe and since when is getting someone professional care for their problems dogmatic? Sr. CAN cut off the paychecks. But -I think you are over-selling non-church treatment. Even if they were a woman. http://thewartburgwatch.com/2017/06/21/rc-sproul-jr-is-now-a-convicted-felon-alcoholic-and-is-one-step-away-from-a-tragedy/comment-page-1/#comment-329719. I have with Dee, and you can also gain some insights from the article itself. So these people are not mean or manipulative as far as you know, but the last time you saw one their wives try to tell them they had too much on board, what was their reactionsweetness and lightthank you dear for reminding me? You have taken this quote out of context . You and I differ on this, and I see no agreement between us on the issue of what is the rightful place of the church in such matters. But we do know what RC Sproul teaches, and it is very damaging. RC Sproul Sr was, at least in RC Jrs formative years, a heavy smoker and drinker and set the example for his son. Making the excuses in advance; yes. Were already all in agreement, Velour, about getting people with addictions into treatment. So please stop arguing where there is no dispute. Hes not going to jail or treatment? Once again, I am proven wrong. Yet often they are overlooked while the oppressed one gets all the attention. 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